New Accuser – Wade Robson
A brief story on Wade and Jackson
Wade Robson’s initial interview
Note: Wade Robson’s specific denials of molestation and inappropriate behaviour are highlighted in this color.
1 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Thank you.
2
3 (The following proceedings were held in
4 open court in the presence and hearing of the
5 jury:)
6
7 THE COURT: Good afternoon.
8 THE JURY: (In unison) Good afternoon.
9 THE COURT: You may proceed.
10 THE CLERK: Judge, we need to swear the
11 witness.
12 THE COURT: All right. Please raise your
13 right hand and face the clerk.
14
15 WADE J. ROBSON
16 Having been sworn, testified as follows:
17
18 THE WITNESS: I do.
19 THE CLERK: Please be seated. State and
20 spell your name for the record.
21 THE WITNESS: My name is Wade J. Robson,
22 spelled W-a-d-e, initial J., R-o-b-s-o-n.
23 THE CLERK: Thank you.
24 MR. MESEREAU: May I proceed, Your Honor?
25 THE COURT: You may.
1 DIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. MESEREAU:
3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Robson.
4 A. How you doing.
5 Q. How old are you?
6 A. I am 22.
7 Q. And would you please give the — please just
8 summarize your employment history.
9 A. My employment history.
10 I started dancing when I was two,
11 professionally when I was five. In Australia
12 originally. And moved to America when I was eight.
13 Became a professional dancer. Started teaching
14 dance classes when I was 12. I was in a rap duo
15 when I was 11 and 12. Started choreographing for
16 different artists when I was 14, and now I’m
17 directing film.
18 Q. And where do you live at the moment?
19 A. I live in Tarzana, California.
20 Q. Okay. And you say you’re directing films?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. And can you summarize what you’re doing in
23 that regard?
24 A. The main focus right now, I did a short film
25 that I wrote and produced and directed last year,
26 and that’s doing the whole film festival circuit
27 right now. And I have a three-picture deal with
28 Disney as a film director, and we’re developing an
1 original musical.
2 Q. Do you know the fellow seated at counsel
3 table to my right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And who is that?
6 A. That’s Michael Jackson.
7 Q. How do you know him?
8 A. I met him first when I was five years old.
9 I think it was ‘87. And Michael was touring, he was
10 doing the “Bad” tour. And I was imitating him as a
11 dancer at that point. And he was holding these —
12 it was in connection with Target or something like
13 that, holding these dance, like, contests all around
14 wherever he traveled. So I entered one of the dance
15 contests and ended up winning it, went on to the
16 finals and won that, and then the prize was to meet
17 Michael.
18 So I met him after one of his concerts in
19 Brisbane, Australia. And it was just like in a
20 meet-and-greet sort of room. And we met, and I was
21 in my whole, you know, “Bad” outfit and everything.
22 He was sort of laughing and tripping out on my
23 outfit and asked if I danced. I said, “Yeah.” And
24 he asked me to perform with him in the show the next
25 night.
26 So after — it was like the end of the
27 concert, I pulled up, performed in the show with
28 him. The next — the next — I think within the
1 next couple of days, my mother and I went to visit
2 him at his hotel room, and we stayed for a couple of
3 hours. It was in Brisbane, Australia. Just talking
4 about what I want to do. And then that was kind of
5 it at first.
6 And then for the next two years, we didn’t
7 have any contact at all. And I continued pursuing
8 my dance career in Australia. And then the company
9 that I was with, the dance company, was traveling to
10 America to do a performance at Disneyland.
11 So we all went. Came out, did that
12 performance. As I said, we’d had no contact with
13 Michael or anything. Somehow my mother got in
14 contact with Michael’s secretary at that time, who
15 was Norma Stokes.
16 MR. ZONEN: Your Honor, I’m going to object
17 to the narrative form of the answer.
18 THE COURT: Sustained.
19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: After your mother got in
20 contact with Norma Stakos, what happened next?
21 A. She talked to Michael about — we wanted to
22 see if we could hook up with him again and meet him
23 again. She talked to Michael. Michael remembered
24 me from when I met him when I was five years old,
25 wanted to meet me again.
26 So I was out there with my mother, sister,
27 my father, and grandparents. We all went to meet
28 him at Record One Recording Studios. And this
1 was — this was ‘89.
2 Q. Where is Record One Recording Studios?
3 A. I don’t remember exactly. It’s somewhere in
4 the valley, yeah. In California. Yeah.
5 Q. And what happened next?
6 A. We met up with him. He was in between, you
7 know, working on music and that sort of thing. He
8 was doing a photo shoot at the time at the studio.
9 We took some photos with him. My family and I all
10 went into his — sort of like the green room, and
11 played him some videotapes of all the dancing stuff
12 that I’ve been doing over the last two years. And,
13 you know, he was just really excited, checking out
14 everything I had done. And then by the end of the
15 time, he invited my family and I up to the ranch
16 that weekend.
17 Q. And did you begin a friendship with Mr.
18 Jackson?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you spend much time at Neverland?
21 A. Yeah. Spent a lot of time, yeah.
22 Q. When do you think you first went to
23 Neverland?
24 A. It was right after that visit. I’m pretty
25 sure it was that night that we went, my whole family
26 went to the ranch. And, you know, we stayed for, I
27 don’t know, about a week or something like that.
28 Q. And approximately what year do you think you
1 first went to Neverland, Mr. Robson?
2 A. That was 1989.
3 Q. Okay. And who did you go to Neverland with
4 the first time?
5 A. Went with my mother, my sister, my father,
6 and my grandfather, grandmother.
7 Q. And how long did you stay during that first
8 visit?
9 A. I think it was about a week.
10 Q. And after you spent a week at Neverland,
11 what did you do?
12 A. Went back to Australia.
13 Q. Okay. Did you see Mr. Jackson again?
14 A. Yeah. We would — I don’t remember exact
15 dates, but over the next two years, my mother and I
16 would come out, I don’t know, maybe twice a year,
17 something like that, and spend a couple of weeks
18 with Michael.
19 Q. Would you spend the night at Neverland?
20 A. Some of it was at Neverland. Sometimes it
21 would be at the — he had an apartment in I think it
22 was Westwood at that point that we would stay at
23 sometimes, too.
24 Q. That’s your mother and you would stay at the
25 apartment in Westwood?
26 A. Yeah. That first time, I think a couple
27 times, sometimes I would stay by myself. Always —
28 I think — sometimes — most of the time my mother /p>
1 and I went to the ranch together. I think once I
2 was there by myself without my mother. There was
3 other people there.
4 Q. And did you stay in contact Mr. Jackson
5 through those years?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And how would you communicate with Mr.
8 Jackson?
9 A. When we weren’t there, you know, we’d talk
10 on the phone or we’d send faxes back and forth.
11 Q. At some point did you move to the United
12 States permanently?
13 A. Yeah. We moved in September of 1991. My
14 mother and sister and I.
15 Q. Have you lived here ever since?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Have you lived in Los Angeles ever since?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, your mother’s name is?
20 A. Joy Robson.
21 Q. And how about your sister?
22 A. Chantel Robson.
23 Q. Okay. How many times do you think you’ve
24 stayed at Neverland?
25 A. Um, it’s got to be somewhere in the twenties
26 or something like that. Mid-twenties.
27 Q. And have you stayed there for varying
28 periods of time?
1 A. Yeah. Most of the time it’s usually like a
2 weekend, you know. Friday, Saturday, Sunday.
3 Q. What’s the longest amount of time, do you
4 think, you’ve ever stayed at Neverland?
5 A. You know, I would say a week to a week and a
6 half.
7 Q. Do you consider Michael Jackson your friend?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you consider him a close friend?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You’re aware of the allegations in this
12 case, are you not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And are you aware, as you sit here today,
15 that there’s been allegations that Mr. Jackson
16 molested you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Mr. Robson, did Michael Jackson ever molest
19 you at any time?
20 A. Absolutely not.
21 Q. Mr. Robson, did Michael Jackson ever touch
22 you in a sexual way?
23 A. Never, no.
24 Q. Mr. Robson, has Mr. Jackson ever
25 inappropriately touched any part of your body at any
26 time?
27 A. No.
28 Q. When you first visited Neverland — and I
1 think you said it was about a week you and your mom
2 stayed there?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Where did you stay?
5 A. I stayed in Michael’s room.
6 Q. And could you please describe the room for
7 the jury?
8 A. When you walk in, there’s — there’s a bed,
9 sort of like the main bed, diagonally to your left.
10 Wood floors. There’s a second floor that you go
11 around to the right and up, which also has another
12 bed. There’s a bathroom to the left. There’s
13 bathrooms on both sides of the main bed on the first
14 floor.
15 Q. And you stayed in Mr. Jackson’s room?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The first time you were there?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. To your knowledge, has your mother ever
20 stayed in Mr. Jackson’s room?
21 A. In the room? No.
22 Q. How about your sister?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And when do you recall your sister staying
25 in the room?
26 A. On that first trip, the first time we went
27 to Neverland.
28 Q. Okay. What do you recall doing at Neverland
1 during that first visit when you spent approximately
2 a week?
3 A. Well, at that point he didn’t have many of
4 the rides. We would watch movies in the theater.
5 You know, we’d play video games. We’d drive around
6 on the golf carts, look at the animals. Those sort
7 of things.
8 Q. Has Mr. Jackson ever helped you with your
9 career?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What has he done?
12 A. When I first moved out here, when I was
13 nine, he put me in a couple of his music videos. I
14 was in the “Jam” music video, “Black or White” music
15 video, and “Heal the World.” And that sort of
16 helped me get a dance agent, dance agency, and —
17 and, yeah.
18 And then the next thing, when I said I was
19 in a rap duo when I was 11 and 12, that was on
20 Michael Jackson’s label under Sony.
21 Q. Do you recall the second time you ever
22 visited Neverland?
23 A. No, I don’t.
24 Q. Do you recall staying in Mr. Jackson’s room
25 on other occasions?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And typically when you’d stay in Mr.
28 Jackson’s room, what would you do?
1 A. What would we do as far as just —
2 Q. Sure. Anything.
3 A. Yeah. We’d watch — same thing. We’d watch
4 movies, we’d play video games, you know, we’d have a
5 pillow fight every now and then. We’d talk. Hang
6 out.
7 Q. How many times do you think you’ve stayed in
8 Mr. Jackson’s room at Neverland?
9 A. Same amount of times as I’ve been there.
10 Well, no, that’s not true, I’m sorry. I’ve been
11 there a bunch of times without Michael, just with
12 other friends and family traveling there. But, I
13 don’t know, maybe 15 to 20.
14 Q. And at no time has any sexual contact ever
15 occurred between you and Mr. Jackson, right?
16 A. Never.
17 Q. Have you ever taken a shower with Mr.
18 Jackson?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Have you ever gone swimming with Mr.
21 Jackson?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And please explain what you mean.
24 A. One time with my sister and I, my sister and
25 I and Michael, we went in the Jacuzzi at Neverland
26 Ranch.
27 Q. And do you know approximately when that was?
28 A. I don’t. I can’t say for sure. I have a
1 feeling that it was within that first trip in ‘89
2 when I went there.
3 Q. Do you recall what Mr. Jackson was wearing
4 in the Jacuzzi?
5 A. From my recollection, he was wearing shorts.
6 You know, like swimming shorts. And that was it.
7 Q. Did anything inappropriate ever happen in
8 that Jacuzzi?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Has anything inappropriate ever happened in
11 any shower with you and Mr. Jackson?
12 A. No. Never been in a shower with him.
13 Q. Did you get to know any of the employees at
14 Neverland when you were there?
15 A. I wouldn’t say “get to know.” You know, I
16 knew of them and we’d know each other’s names, but
17 it never went beyond that.
18 Q. Do you recall someone named Blanca Francia?
19 A. Yes, I remember her name. And I remember
20 her presence. I can’t place her. I can’t remember
21 what she looks like or anything like that.
22 Q. Do you know whether or not Blanca Francia
23 ever was in a room when you were with Mr. Jackson?
24 A. Not that I can remember.
25 Q. Okay. Did you ever meet anyone named Ralph
26 Chacon?
27 A. No.
28 Q. How about Kassim Abdool?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you recall anyone named Adrian McManus?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you have much interaction with the
5 security people when you were visiting and staying
6 at Neverland?
7 A. No. The only interaction would be is, I
8 don’t know, if — if they were trying — if we were
9 out, you know, watching a movie or something like
10 that, they’d come tell us that dinner was ready or
11 something like that.
12 In later years, when I would go there and
13 just visit with my family and that sort of thing,
14 sometimes we’d have water fights and get the
15 security involved. But other than that, no.
16 Q. Did you come across anyone named Mrs.
17 Chandler when you were at Neverland?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And when do you think this was?
20 A. I think I was about 13. But I can’t
21 pinpoint any more — anything more definitive than
22 that. Around that time.
23 Q. Do you recall ever seeing someone at
24 Neverland talking to Mrs. Chandler?
25 A. Sorry? Can you repeat that?
26 Q. Did you ever see Mrs. Chandler talking to
27 anyone at Neverland?
28 A. Yeah, I mean, maybe chefs or — you know, or
1 maids or something like that.
2 Q. What do you recall Mrs. Chandler doing at
3 Neverland?
4 A. I think I mainly saw her if we’d sit down to
5 eat dinner or something like that. That’s the only
6 time I saw her.
7 Q. Did you ever see her ordering people around
8 at Neverland?
9 A. Yeah, well —
10 MR. ZONEN: I’m going to object as leading.
11 THE COURT: Sustained.
12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When you saw Mrs. Chandler
13 talking to these people at Neverland, what do you
14 recall her doing?
15 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as irrelevant and
16 vague.
17 MR. MESEREAU: There’s been testimony by
18 her, Your Honor, about what she saw.
19 THE COURT: I’ll allow the question.
20 You may answer. Do you want it read back?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, please.
22 (Record read.)
23 THE WITNESS: I remember her, you know,
24 ordering food, that sort of thing, from maids or
25 chefs, or whatever.
26 And, you know, the thing I sort of noticed
27 was she was always sort of — you know, she would
28 sort of act like the place was hers, you know. Sort
1 of order people around a bit.
2 And, you know, I guess I noticed it because
3 my mother, when we went there, she always made it
4 really clear that this was Michael Jackson’s house.
5 This was somebody’s house and —
6 MR. ZONEN: I’m going to object as
7 nonresponsive to the question and narrative.
8 THE COURT: All right. The last sentence is
9 stricken.
10 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Mr. Robson, has anyone
11 told you what to say in this courtroom today?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Is everything you’ve said the complete and
14 honest truth?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did Mr. Jackson ever do anything wrong with
17 you?
18 A. No.
19 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions.
20 THE COURT: Cross-examine?
21
22 CROSS-EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. ZONEN:
24 Q. Mr. Robson, good afternoon.
25 A. Good afternoon.
26 Q. Have you been living in the United States
27 continuously since you were eight years old?
28 A. Yes.
1 Q. Was Mr. Jackson instrumental in your being
2 able to move to the United States to pursue your
3 career?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Are you grateful for Mr. Jackson’s help and
6 assistance in the development of your career?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you go to high school or college at all?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Not either one?
11 A. I didn’t go to a public high school. I did
12 home studies.
13 Q. You did home studies all through high
14 school?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. And no college at all?
17 A. No.
18 Q. So you began your dance career early on and
19 continued through to today; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. Now, the first time that you
22 slept with Mr. Jackson you were seven years old; is
23 that correct?
24 A. I slept in the same bed with him. But, yes,
25 I was seven.
26 Q. Did you understand my question to mean
27 something other than that?
28 A. Sounded like it.
1 Q. All right. But you slept in the same bed
2 with him when you were seven years old; is that
3 correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was anybody else in that bed with you?
6 A. My sister, Chantel Robson.
7 Q. She was ten years old; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is it true that there was not another adult
10 anywhere in that room at the time you crawled into
11 bed with Mr. Jackson?
12 A. True.
13 Q. And in fact, you continued to sleep with Mr.
14 Jackson through the balance of that week during your
15 seventh year; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was your sister there the entire time during
18 that week as well?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was she in that bed with you as well?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did she continue to share a bed with you and
23 Mr. Jackson thereafter, or did you sleep only with
24 Mr. Jackson thereafter?
25 A. What do you mean by “thereafter”?
26 Q. Well, on all the occasions that you returned
27 to visit Mr. Jackson’s ranch, did you stay in his
28 room, by yourself, with him?
1 A. Yes. But my sister wasn’t in — wasn’t with
2 us at all in America.
3 Q. All right. So when you moved here — and
4 incidentally, your father was there during that
5 first week when you were seven years old; is that
6 right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. But your father did not return to visit
9 thereafter?
10 A. No.
11 Q. All right. So you stayed in the United
12 States. Your father stayed in Australia.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did your mother stay in the United States?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. For the balance of the next number of years,
17 your father was simply not in the picture while you
18 were in the United States; is that right?
19 A. He wasn’t there with us, no.
20 Q. And Mr. Jackson understood that as well, did
21 he not, that your father was not in the picture
22 while you were at Neverland?
23 A. Well, he understood that he wasn’t there,
24 yes.
25 Q. Okay. And did you have any contact with
26 your father at all?
27 A. Yes. We talked on the phone.
28 Q. By telephone?
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Did you visit him?
3 A. I’m sorry, are we talking about once I moved
4 to America?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. Oh, yes, we would go back at least every two
7 years for Christmas.
8 Q. Did he ever come to the United States to
9 visit you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did he have any other visits with you at
12 Neverland?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you talk with your mother, prior to that
15 first week that you slept with Mr. Jackson with your
16 sister, about the sleeping arrangements at all?
17 A. Well, yeah, the first day that we got there,
18 to Neverland Ranch — you know, I think we got there
19 in about the afternoon. We hung out a bit.
20 When it was time to go bed, I asked Michael
21 if I could stay with him in his room. And then
22 Michael and I went to — mom was staying in a guest
23 room. We went to her room and I asked her. Michael
24 asked her if that was okay. And she said yes.
25 Q. All right. Now, you asked Michael Jackson
26 if you could share his room with him. Now, what
27 caused you to do that? You were seven years old.
28 What caused you to ask him if you could stay with
1 him in his room?
2 A. Well, it’s the same way with any child.
3 When you — you know, when you have a best friend or
4 a new friend that you found, you always want to stay
5 in the same room with them.
6 Q. He was in his mid 30s; is that right?
7 A. Yes, I guess so.
8 Q. Had you ever crawled into bed with a
9 30-year-old man prior to that day?
10 A. My father.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. But other than that, no.
13 Q. Any person who you had just met?
14 A. No.
15 Q. All right. And in fact, throughout your
16 entire adolescent years, you had never slept with
17 any other man other than Michael Jackson and your
18 father; is that correct?
19 A. Never slept in a bed with any other man, no.
20 Q. Now, you had a conversation with your mother
21 about where you would sleep that night, that first
22 time. Again, you’re seven years old; is that right?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Did your mother talk to you about perhaps
25 you should stay with her in the guest cottage?
26 A. No.
27 Q. Was she the one who suggested that your
28 sister should go with you and stay in that room with
1 Mr. Jackson?
2 A. I don’t remember that. I remember Chantel,
3 my sister, wanted to as well.
4 Q. Had your mother actually seen the room
5 that — or the rooms that constitute Mr. Jackson’s
6 bedroom suite?
7 A. Yeah. When we first got to the ranch, he
8 took us around, a tour around everywhere, in his
9 room.
10 Q. So she understood at the time that the
11 bedroom suite was composed of a number of different
12 rooms with actually beds in at least two of them; is
13 that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And there were bathrooms on both levels; is
16 that right?
17 A. I don’t think there’s a bathroom on the
18 second level. There’s two on the first level.
19 Q. Was your mother under the impression that
20 you would be sleeping in a different location from
21 Michael Jackson when you first went to his room at
22 age seven?
23 A. Not that I know of.
24 Q. All right. Had you talked with her the next
25 day about where you actually slept that prior night?
26 A. No, not that I remember.
27 Q. At any time during that first week when you
28 were there at age seven, did you ever tell your
1 mother that you actually shared the bed with Michael
2 Jackson?
3 A. I’m sure.
4 Q. You think you did?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Do you remember your mother’s response to
7 hearing that?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did your sister, in your presence, tell your
10 mother that she was also sleeping in the same bed
11 with Michael Jackson at age ten?
12 A. I can’t say for sure. I don’t remember,
13 but —
14 Q. At any time during that first week that you
15 were there, did you have any conversation with your
16 mother wherein your mother expressed concern about
17 where you were sleeping?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Were you seeing your mother during the day?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. After that first week, did you
22 go back to Australia?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. You were in Australia for what, about a
25 year?
26 A. I think so. I don’t remember.
27 Q. And then you returned to the United States
28 for good at that point?
1 A. Well, we had a couple of visits back to
2 America before we returned in ‘91 for good.
3 Q. With what rate of frequency did you continue
4 to visit with Michael Jackson after returning at age
5 eight?
6 A. I would say twice a year.
7 Q. All right. And during those periods of
8 time, you would stay for up to a week at a time, no?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Were there times that you actually stayed at
11 Neverland for many weeks at a time?
12 A. Not that I can remember. Like I said, a
13 week to a week and a half. Maybe it was two weeks,
14 but I don’t remember any more than that.
15 Q. Were there periods of time when you were at
16 Neverland and working with Mr. Jackson on dance
17 routines?
18 A. No. I mean, we would mess around and dance
19 a little bit in the studio every now and then, yes.
20 Q. Was there ever an occasion where you were on
21 the dance floor with Mr. Jackson and he was showing
22 you a routine and he grabbed your crotch in a manner
23 similar to how he would grab his own crotch while
24 doing those performances?
25 A. No, that’s not true.
26 Q. You have no recollection of that?
27 A. No.
28 Q. That didn’t happen?
1 A. No.
2 Q. During the period of time from age eight on,
3 did you stay in Mr. Jackson’s room virtually the
4 entire time?
5 A. I’m sorry?
6 Q. The times that you would come and visit Mr.
7 Jackson from age eight on —
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. — did you stay in Mr. Jackson’s room?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. By age 11, you were asked to
12 give a deposition, were you not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you actually did give testimony under
15 oath in the presence of two prosecutors from Los
16 Angeles; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. There was also an attorney present who
19 represented you; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. After that deposition, did you
22 continue to sleep in Mr. Jackson’s room?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you continue to sleep in Mr. Jackson’s
25 bed?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. All right. Now, during that period of time
28 from age eight until age 11, did you frequently
1 visit Mr. Jackson?
2 A. From — I’m sorry, from eight to 11?
3 Q. Age eight to age 11, did you frequently
4 visit Mr. Jackson?
5 A. Yeah. Same amount of time. Maybe twice a
6 year, or every couple of months, something like
7 that.
8 Q. Is it safe to say that during each of those
9 visits, you stayed in Mr. Jackson’s room?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. Were there ever occasions where
12 you went to visit Mr. Jackson when your mother
13 wasn’t there?
14 A. Yes. I think a couple of times he had an
15 apartment in Century City that my mother would drop
16 me off and I’d stay for, you know, a night or so by
17 myself with Michael there.
18 Q. Was that a place called “The Hideout”?
19 A. I remember a place called “The Hideout.”
20 I don’t remember if it was that place.
21 Q. Were there more places where you visited and
22 stayed overnight in Century City?
23 A. Yeah, there was a hotel that was — I mean,
24 I’m sorry, an apartment that was in Westwood and
25 then one that was in Century City.
26 Q. Was there a place where Mr. Jackson was
27 living in, either Westwood or Century City, where
28 there was a hotel across the street?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And would it be the case that periodically
3 you would visit him there, your mother would stay in
4 the hotel, but you would stay with him in his room?
5 A. One time when we came over, we stayed — I
6 think it was the Westwood apartment, his Westwood
7 apartment. There was a Holiday Inn that was across
8 and we stayed there most of the time. And then
9 certain nights I would go over to Michael and stay
10 with him.
11 Q. Mr. Robson, were there ever occasions where
12 you stayed with Michael Jackson where you didn’t
13 sleep with him in his bed?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How often did that happen?
16 A. I don’t know. Maybe three, four times.
17 Q. Three or four times over years we’re talking
18 about; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So, for the most part, the overwhelming
21 majority of times you shared his bed with him?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, at any time did you start to develop
24 conversations with your mother about the propriety
25 of sleeping with this man who’s now well into his
26 30s?
27 A. No.
28 Q. Did you consider it unusual at all?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did your mother consider it unusual?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you ever talk to your father about it?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. You talked to your father about your
7 sleeping with Michael Jackson?
8 A. No, I mean, you know, everybody knew, and
9 nobody ever said that it was — we never talked
10 about it being unusual or anything like that.
11 Q. Did your mother ever ask you if anything
12 inappropriate happened in bed with him?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did she simply assume nothing happened?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You’re telling us nothing happened; is that
17 right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All right. What you’re really telling us is
20 nothing happened while you were awake; isn’t that
21 true?
22 A. I’m telling you that nothing ever happened.
23 Q. Mr. Robson, when you were asleep, you
24 wouldn’t have known what had happened, particularly
25 at age seven, would you have?
26 A. I would think something like that would wake
27 me up.
28 Q. On those occasions that you were at
1 Neverland, you used to play very actively, did you
2 not?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. There was a lot to do at
5 Neverland; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And on some days you were actually working
8 out heavily with the defendant, engaged in dance
9 routines, weren’t you?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. And on other occasions you would be playing
12 very actively. There’s just a host of things that a
13 seven-year-old can do and have fun with; is that
14 right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you can play — all manner of video
17 games that exist anywhere in the world can be found
18 at Neverland; is that right?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. And there’s video games, there’s movies,
21 there’s a zoo, there’s all kinds of parks, and the
22 trains. You’re very active during the entire day;
23 is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And at night you’d go back to his room and
26 you’d play more video games or you’d watch
27 television; is that right?
28 A. Yes.
1 Q. And there’s movies of any kind that you can
2 see with Mr. Jackson?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did your mother ever complain to you that
5 you were losing contact with her and that she was
6 losing her contact with you? Did she ever say that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. In fact, she was very upset over the fact
9 that she was losing her ability to have access to
10 her son, wasn’t she?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Was there, in fact, a shower at Neverland in
13 the suite, the bedroom suite?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. But you didn’t use it?
16 A. I used it by myself.
17 Q. Was he in the room while you were using it?
18 A. In the bedroom, not in the shower room,
19 which had its own door.
20 Q. You were seven years old when you started
21 using that shower; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. When did you stop sleeping with Mr. Jackson?
24 A. I guess when I was about, I don’t know,
25 maybe 13, 14, something like that.
26 Q. Why did you stop?
27 A. I didn’t stop sleeping with him. I just
28 haven’t spent the night with him, I mean, in his
1 room or anything like that since then, I don’t
2 think.
3 Q. You haven’t gone back to Neverland since you
4 were 13?
5 A. I have. Not with him.
6 Q. Have you gone back to Neverland since you
7 were 13 and actually stayed overnight?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. On how many occasions since you were 13?
10 A. A lot. Same thing. 20, 25. Something like
11 that.
12 Q. Did he take you to other locations such as
13 Las Vegas?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And while you were at Las Vegas, you went to
16 see Siegfried & Roy?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And being with Mr. Jackson back then was a
19 very exciting experience, wasn’t it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. He was able to go anywhere he wanted in Las
22 Vegas and take you with him?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Did you start to dress like him?
25 A. I always did before I met him.
26 Q. All right. And during the time that you
27 were with him, he enjoyed you wearing clothing
28 similar to what he wore; is that correct?
1 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; calls for
2 speculation.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did he ever tell you that he
5 wanted you to dress like him?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did he ever give you hats similar to the
8 type of hats that he wears?
9 A. Because I would ask for them.
10 Q. And did you, in fact, wear those types of
11 hats when you were out with him?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And when you were in Las Vegas, did you wear
14 those hats as you wandered around Las Vegas with
15 him?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When you were in Las Vegas, where did you
18 stay?
19 A. We stayed at The Mirage Hotel.
20 Q. Who went to Las Vegas with you?
21 A. My mother.
22 Q. Just your mother?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Was your sister with you at all?
25 A. No.
26 Q. Did your sister move to the United States
27 with you?
28 A. Yes.
1 Q. But she didn’t go to Las Vegas with you?
2 A. Well, we weren’t — we didn’t live in the
3 United States at that point. We still lived in
4 Australia. We were out on a visit.
5 Q. When you were in the hotel in Las Vegas, it
6 is true that you stayed with Mr. Jackson in his bed?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And your mother stayed in a separate room;
9 is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, were there other boys that you knew
12 about who were sleeping with Michael Jackson during
13 that time?
14 A. No, not that I knew of. I mean, the only
15 other time I was around other boys, other kids at
16 the ranch, I think once or twice, and, you know,
17 we’d all stay in the room and we’d kind of fall
18 asleep on couches, beds, cots, wherever they were.
19 Q. Did you know Jordie Chandler?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. You just described — you just told the jury
22 that — that you knew Jordie Chandler’s mother; is
23 that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What’s her name?
26 A. I know her — June. June Chandler.
27 Q. All right. Describe her for us. What does
28 she look like?
1 A. She has dark, almost black hair. Sort of —
2 sort of brown eyes. I think some — kind of like
3 a — a little bit of a darker complexion.
4 Q. Slim woman? Heavy woman?
5 A. Slim woman.
6 Q. Now, do you remember her son Jordie?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. On how many occasions did you meet Jordie?
9 A. Once.
10 Q. Only one time?
11 A. That’s all I can remember, yes.
12 Q. And did you spend the night with Jordie?
13 A. Yeah, we all stayed in Michael’s room.
14 Q. You say “we all stayed.” Were there other
15 people there besides Jordie?
16 A. Yeah, Macaulay Culkin was there and his
17 brother Kieran Culkin.
18 Q. Now, Macaulay Culkin has sisters, does he
19 not?
20 A. I don’t know.
21 Q. Were there any girls that were staying with
22 you that night?
23 A. Not that I remember.
24 Q. Were there ever any girls, other than your
25 sister, at age seven, who actually spent the night
26 in Mr. Jackson’s room with you during the years that
27 you knew him and spent the night in his room?
28 A. Yes.
1 Q. Who?
2 A. There was Brandy Jackson.
3 Q. I’m sorry?
4 A. Brandy Jackson, who is Michael’s niece.
5 Q. And she spent the night on how many
6 occasions with you?
7 A. Only one that I can remember.
8 Q. One night?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. All right. So we’re talking about a period
11 of about five years; is that right?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. In the five years, you can remember Brandy.
14 Who else do you recall?
15 A. As far as females?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. My sister. Brandy. That’s all I remember.
18 Q. Now, your sister actually never went back
19 into that room and spent the night with you after
20 that first week when you were seven; is that
21 correct?
22 A. Yeah, not that I can remember.
23 Q. Is it an accurate statement to say that the
24 boys who stayed there for long periods of time
25 started getting pretty rowdy?
26 A. Rowdy?
27 Q. Yeah.
28 A. What do you mean?
1 Q. Well, goof off, and simply kids who weren’t
2 under a lot of supervision?
3 A. Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, boys will be
4 boys. We’d go around and have fun.
5 Q. Loud and boisterous?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And on occasions break things?
8 A. Accidentally, yeah.
9 Q. And be somewhat disobedient?
10 A. Some of them maybe.
11 Q. Were there ever occasions where you and Mr.
12 Jackson were throwing stones at the lion in the zoo?
13 A. Stones at the lion. Yeah, I think so.
14 Q. That did happen, didn’t it?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Mr. Jackson was throwing stones at the lion
17 in your presence; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Was he encouraging you to do the same thing?
20 A. Yeah. Little pebbles, but, yeah.
21 Q. They weren’t exactly pebbles. They were
22 good-sized stones, weren’t they?
23 A. No, I remember small stones.
24 Q. It was designed to irritate the lion, wasn’t
25 it?
26 A. Yeah, we were trying get him to make some
27 noise.
28 Q. Because it was entertaining to Mr. Jackson
1 and to you?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. How old were you at the time?
4 A. I think I would have been seven or eight.
5 Q. Were there any other kids around at that
6 time?
7 A. No. Maybe my sister.
8 Q. Now, you said that you spent one night that
9 you can recall with Jordie Chandler. Do you know
10 Brett Barnes?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you ever spend a night with Brett
13 Barnes?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you ever meet Brett Barnes?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How old were you when you met Brett Barnes?
18 A. I think I would have been nine. It was soon
19 after we moved to America.
20 Q. On that occasion when you spent the night
21 with Jordie Chandler, Macaulay, and his brother, was
22 Brett Barnes there as well?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you know if Brett Barnes spent nights
25 with Michael Jackson?
26 A. I don’t know.
27 Q. Do you know if they ever shared a bed?
28 A. I don’t know.
1 Q. Did Michael Jackson ever talk to you about
2 the propriety of sleeping with him?
3 A. Could you rephrase that?
4 Q. Did Michael Jackson ever have a conversation
5 with you wherein the subject of the conversation was
6 that it was okay for you to sleep with a
7 30-something-year-old man?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. He did?
10 A. We would both talk about it.
11 Q. Really. From what age? When did that first
12 conversation happen?
13 A. I don’t remember.
14 Q. Were you seven?
15 A. I don’t remember.
16 Q. Was it the first week that you were there?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you think it was soon after you moved to
19 the United States?
20 A. I really don’t remember.
21 Q. What was the nature of that conversation?
22 A. I don’t remember an exact conversation. I’m
23 sure it’s just something, you know, we talked about
24 at some point; that — you know, that it’s fine.
25 Q. Did Mr. Jackson ever tell you that you were
26 family to him?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Did he tell you that often?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did he tell you that he would take care of
3 you?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did he tell you he would protect you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right. Did he ever tell your mother in
8 your presence that you were family?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And that your mother could trust him?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In fact, the word “trust” came up in many
13 conversations with Michael Jackson, did it not?
14 A. Yeah, we’d talk about trust in, you know,
15 other people, and that sort of thing.
16 Q. But he encouraged you particularly to trust
17 in him, did he not?
18 A. No, there was no particular emphasis on it.
19 Q. How much time did you spend with Macaulay
20 Culkin?
21 A. Um, there was that — the trip that we spoke
22 of, that I think was a couple of days. I think I
23 was with him one other time at the Century City
24 apartment, which was a night. I think that was
25 about it.
26 Q. Now, the trip you described, that trip was
27 where now?
28 A. Which trip?
1 Q. Maybe I misheard you. Did you say “the trip
2 I just spoke of”?
3 A. Oh, the one I spoke of. That was the one
4 where I said where Jordie Chandler was there at
5 Neverland.
6 Q. That was Neverland?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. He was there and you were there for what
9 period of time together? Just one night?
10 A. No, it was a couple days.
11 Q. Did it go over more than one night?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. On both of those nights, did both of you
14 spend that time in Mr. Jackson’s room?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, did either one of you actually spend
17 the night in Mr. Jackson’s bed with Mr. Jackson?
18 A. No. I think — from I can remember — I can
19 only remember one night in particular, and I
20 remember myself and Kieran Culkin, I think, slept on
21 Michael’s bed, and Michael slept on a cot, or
22 something, on the side of us, and I don’t know,
23 Macaulay fell asleep on a couch or something.
24 Q. I’m sorry.
25 A. Go ahead, no.
26 Q. The Century City apartment, I believe you
27 said you spent some time there with Macaulay Culkin
28 as well?
1 A. Yeah. I think it was one night there, yeah.
2 Q. Was his brother there?
3 A. I don’t remember for sure. I don’t remember
4 him being there.
5 Q. Mr. Jackson would periodically kiss you,
6 would he not?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Periodically hug you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Touch you?
11 A. Hug me. That would be —
12 Q. Put his hands through your hair?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Touch you about the head and the face?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Did he ever kiss you on the cheek?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. Did he ever kiss you on the lips?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you remember any other children being
21 there about that time?
22 A. Which time?
23 Q. From the time that you were seven until the
24 time you stopped sleeping there at age 13.
25 A. Being at the ranch?
26 Q. Yes.
27 A. Other than we spoke of, no.
28 Q. Did you know Blanca Francia’s son?
1 A. No. I knew of him. But I don’t think I
2 ever met him.
3 Q. What was his name?
4 A. I don’t know.
5 Q. Does “Jason” sound familiar?
6 A. Yes, but I think because I’ve heard it
7 recently. But, yeah.
8 Q. Now, were there ever occasions after you
9 were 14 years old that you came and stayed at
10 Neverland Ranch and Michael Jackson was, in fact,
11 there?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you did not stay with him in his room?
14 A. The only time I can remember was a time I
15 went up there with a few family members and friends,
16 and we didn’t know he was going to be there. And,
17 you know, we sort of ran into him and hung out a
18 bit, and, no, I didn’t sleep in his room.
19 Q. Did you ever talk to Michael Jackson about
20 the fact that at some age it was too late for you to
21 be sleeping with him?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you ever have a conversation with him
24 about whether or not you should continue to sleep in
25 his bed?
26 A. No.
27 Q. Remember the last time you slept in his bed?
28 A. The last — I think it might have been when
1 I was about 14. It was at a Sheraton Hotel in Los
2 Angeles.
3 Q. And how did you happen to be there with him?
4 A. I stayed with him for I think it was just
5 one night.
6 Q. Did you call or did he call you?
7 A. I don’t remember.
8 Q. Was your mother there?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you remember how you got there?
11 A. No, I don’t.
12 Q. Were there occasions that Mr. Jackson would
13 summon you to Neverland Ranch?
14 A. Summon me?
15 Q. Yes. Call you up and ask you to come and be
16 there; invite you to Neverland Ranch?
17 A. Invite us, yeah.
18 Q. All right. Without your mother?
19 A. Like ask if I could come without my mother,
20 do you mean?
21 Q. Or just ask you to come, and you came by
22 yourself.
23 A. The only time I remember being there —
24 sorry. The only time I remember being there was
25 that — that trip that we spoke of by myself with
26 Jordie Chandler and Macaulay.
27 Q. On the occasions that you stayed in bed with
28 Mr. Jackson, would you ever cuddle in bed?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Would you lie next to one another?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Would you touch?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Would you consider it to have been
7 inappropriate to have cuddled in bed?
8 A. Sorry?
9 Q. Would you have considered it to be
10 inappropriate to have cuddled in bed?
11 A. No.
12 MR. ZONEN: I have no further questions.
13
14 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. MESEREAU:
16 Q. Mr. Robson, the prosecutor for the
17 government asked you about your dressing like
18 Michael Jackson.
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. And I believe you said something about you
21 dressed like him before you met him.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Would you please explain that?
24 A. Well, you know, I became a fan of Michael
25 Jackson when I was two years old, when I saw the
26 making of “Thriller,” and started dancing like him
27 when I was, you know, three or four. So I think
28 when I was about five, I started, because I was
1 imitating him. I got costumes made and that sort of
2 thing. So I would dress like him from that point,
3 before I met him.
4 Q. Did Mr. Jackson ever encourage you to dress
5 like him?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you dress like him because you were a
8 fan and friend of his?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, the prosecutor talked about your
11 throwing pebbles at a lion.
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. Would you please explain what you were
14 describing.
15 A. Well, there’s a lion that was in a cage.
16 And, you know, went to see the lion roar, and it’s
17 pretty much just sitting there, you know, not doing
18 anything. So we picked up a couple little stones
19 and threw them at the cage, you know.
20 Q. And the prosecutor used the word “stones,”
21 and you said “pebbles.” How big were these things?
22 A. Little, you know — I don’t know,
23 quarter-inch sort of things.
24 Q. Were you trying to hurt the lion?
25 A. No.
26 Q. To your knowledge, was Mr. Jackson trying to
27 hurt the lion?
28 A. No.
1 Q. Okay. The prosecutor asked you questions
2 about whether or not you were considered family.
3 Did you consider yourself to be part of Mr.
4 Jackson’s family?
5 A. Yeah, I mean, in a friendship sort of way.
6 Because we were that close. It was like family.
7 Q. And did you use the word “family” once in a
8 while —
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. — when you spoke to him?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you hear your mother or sister using the
13 word “family”?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you think anything was strange about
16 that?
17 A. No.
18 Q. The prosecutor for the government asked
19 about Mr. Jackson giving you a kiss on the cheek.
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. And you said that happened sometimes?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you think there was anything
24 inappropriate about that?
25 A. No.
26 Q. Did you do it in front of your mom?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Did you do it in front of your sister?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did your mother kiss him on the cheek?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did your sister kiss him on the cheek?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you kiss Mr. Jackson on the cheek?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did your mother used to hug Mr. Jackson?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did Mr. Jackson used to hug your mother?
11 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as irrelevant what
12 happened with his mother.
13 THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.
14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did Mr. Jackson used to
15 hug your mother?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did your sister used to hug Mr. Jackson?
18 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as leading as well.
19 THE COURT: Overruled.
20 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did your sister used to
21 hug Mr. Jackson?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And would you see Mr. Jackson hug your
24 sister?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Did you ever think there was anything
27 inappropriate about Mr. Jackson hugging any member
28 of your family?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you ever think it was inappropriate to
3 see any member of your family hug Mr. Jackson?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Now, you said your sister would sometimes
6 stay in Mr. Jackson’s room, correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And how often do you recall that happening?
9 A. I remember it just within that first trip we
10 were there. So it was — it was, you know, three or
11 four nights or something like that.
12 Q. And you mentioned Brandy. Is that who you
13 mentioned?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Who was Brandy again?
16 A. She was Michael Jackson’s niece.
17 Q. You saw Brandy staying in his room?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. What’s the largest number of kids you ever
20 saw stay in Mr. Jackson’s room, if you remember?
21 A. Yeah, probably four to five.
22 Q. And what do you recall the children doing in
23 his room?
24 A. Well, before we went to sleep, same sort of
25 things. We’d play video games, watch movies. Have
26 pillow fights. You know, yeah.
27 Q. Did you ever see anything of a sexual nature
28 between Mr. Jackson and any of those children?
1 A. Never.
2 Q. Now, the prosecutor mentioned Macaulay
3 Culkin. Did you get to know Macaulay Culkin at
4 Neverland?
5 A. Yeah. I mean, we hung out a little bit,
6 yes.
7 Q. Was that where you first met him?
8 A. I think I might have met him on a — on a
9 set of a commercial or one of his videos or — or,
10 no, I think I met him on “Black or White” the first
11 time, the music video.
12 Q. Did you stay in contact with Mr. Culkin?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Is he someone you communicate with on a
15 regular basis?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay. Now, would you see Mr. Culkin’s
18 family at Neverland?
19 A. Other than his brother Kieran, I don’t
20 remember.
21 Q. And approximately how old was his brother,
22 do you think?
23 A. At that time, he would have been, I guess,
24 nine or ten, or something like that.
25 Q. Have you seen Mr. Jackson hug other children
26 at Neverland?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Have you seen other children hug Mr. Jackson
1 at Neverland?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Have you ever thought any of this was
4 inappropriate?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Have you seen Mr. Jackson kiss children at
7 Neverland?
8 A. On the cheek, yes. Or on the head, or on
9 the top of the head, something like that.
10 Q. Ever seen kids kiss Mr. Jackson?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Any of that ever look inappropriate to you?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Have you seen lots of children visit
15 Neverland on occasion?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And what do you mean?
18 A. I think we were there once when he had one
19 of his gatherings, like a Heal the World Foundation
20 thing where he had a bunch of kids come up there
21 and — you know, and have the day there.
22 Q. And how many kids are you talking about, do
23 you think?
24 A. Probably about 100 or 50. 75 to 100,
25 something like that.
26 Q. Were there adults with those children?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And you said, “Heal the World.” What did
1 that mean to you?
2 MR. ZONEN: I’m going to object as exceeding
3 the scope of the direct examination, and irrelevant,
4 and beyond the scope of his knowledge.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 You may answer.
7 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the question?
8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Yeah. What was “Heal the
9 World,” as far as you remember?
10 A. As far as I knew, it was a foundation or a
11 charity that Michael had created that, you know,
12 raised money for kids with illnesses. I don’t know
13 exactly what kind, but —
14 Q. Did you interact with any of these kids that
15 visited that day?
16 A. I may have, yeah, I mean, waved at them or
17 met a couple of them or something like that.
18 Q. Did you see Mr. Jackson hugging other
19 children?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you see them hugging him?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you see Mr. Jackson kiss children?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Have you seen them kiss him?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Ever seen anything inappropriate?
28 A. No.
1 Q. Did you see Mr. Jackson hug adults who were
2 with those children?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you see adults hug Mr. Jackson who were
5 with those children?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Ever think any of that was inappropriate?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Now, the prosecutor for the government asked
10 you questions about whether he touched your hair.
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. Do you recall Mr. Jackson ever touching your
13 hair?
14 A. I can’t recall an exact thing, but it seems
15 like something he might have done at some point.
16 Q. Do you ever recall Mr. Jackson doing
17 anything inappropriate with your hair?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Ever seen Mr. Jackson touch another child on
20 the head?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Have you seen that many times?
23 A. Many times.
24 Q. Did it ever seem like anything inappropriate
25 was going on when you saw that?
26 A. No.
27 Q. The prosecutor asked about disobedience at
28 Neverland, and you said you did see kids act up
1 sometimes?
2 A. Yeah, I mean, act up as far as kids go. I
3 mean, you know, driving golf carts around and
4 throwing water balloons at each other, and things
5 that, I guess, I don’t know, maybe parents would get
6 upset about at some point, but that was the extent
7 of it.
8 Q. And did you engage in some of that, too?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you ever see Michael Jackson in a water
11 balloon fight with kids?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Ever see kids throw water balloons at
14 Michael?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Ever see Michael throw water balloons at
17 kids?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you ever see Michael in golf carts with
20 kids?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When you used to play at Neverland during
23 the day, would Michael often be with you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And what would Michael do with you?
26 A. We’d go on rides together, you know, where
27 we’d drive around in the golf cart together, look at
28 animals together, watch movies together.
1 Q. Did you see Mr. Jackson act in a similar way
2 with other children?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Ever see anything inappropriate go on when
5 he was doing any of these things?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Now, how often do you recall your mother
8 going to Neverland with you?
9 A. It’s been every time except for that one
10 time that I spoke of when I was there with Jordie
11 Chandler and Macaulay and I.
12 Q. What do you recall seeing your mother do at
13 Neverland?
14 A. A lot of the same things with us.
15 Q. Would she sometimes be with Mr. Jackson when
16 all the kids were playing?
17 A. Oh, yes. She was playing along with us.
18 Q. Now, you mentioned visiting an apartment in
19 Century City with Mr. Jackson, right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And what do you recall doing in the
22 apartment with Mr. Jackson?
23 A. Same sort of things. He had arcade games
24 there. You know, candy. We’d eat, we’d watch, you
25 know, T.V. shows, Stooges. Hang around, play games,
26 you know.
27 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Jackson do anything
28 inappropriate with any child at that apartment?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Where else have you been with Mr. Jackson?
3 A. Like I said, we covered Las Vegas. Westwood
4 apartment, Century City apartment. Sheraton Hotel.
5 He came and stayed at my place once.
6 Q. Where was that?
7 A. That was in Hollywood. It was — my mother
8 and I had a condo, and my sister.
9 Q. Did you see Mr. Jackson do anything
10 inappropriate at any of these locations?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Ever seen Mr. Jackson touch any child in a
13 sexual way at any of these locations?
14 A. Never.
15 Q. Did Mr. Jackson ever touch you
16 inappropriately in any of these locations?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Now, have you been following media reporting
19 in this case?
20 A. Yeah. On and off.
21 Q. You’re aware of allegations that were made
22 that Mr. Jackson —
23 MR. ZONEN: I’m going to object as leading
24 and exceeding the scope of the direct — cross.
25 THE COURT: I don’t know what the question is
26 yet.
27 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. You’ve been
28 following these reports that somehow Mr. Jackson was
1 seen inappropriately touching you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What do you think of them?
4 A. I think it’s —
5 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object.
6 I’ll withdraw the objection.
7 THE WITNESS: I think it’s ridiculous.
8 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions.
9
10 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. ZONEN:
12 Q. When Mr. Jackson stayed with you at your
13 Hollywood apartment, how old were you?
14 A. I would say 11 or 12.
15 Q. Did he share your bed with you at that time?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right. There was one bed that you had
18 in your room; is that correct?
19 A. No, it was actually — it was a — like a
20 futon that was our couch down in the living room.
21 Q. So both of you stayed on the couch in the
22 living room?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Was that couch your normal residence? Was
25 that where you normally slept?
26 A. I think that’s where I was sleeping at that
27 point, yeah.
28 Q. You think that’s where you were sleeping?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You slept in other rooms at different times?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Now, all those places that you mentioned are
5 all places that you mentioned, a series of places,
6 you had been with Michael Jackson. On all of those
7 occasions you slept in the same bed with him; is
8 that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you think that’s appropriate, for a
11 35-year-old man to be sleeping with an
12 eight-year-old boy?
13 A. I don’t see any problem with it.
14 Q. Suppose the 35-year-old man has an obsession
15 for sexually explicit material. Would that change
16 your view?
17 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; 352.
18 MR. ZONEN: It’s in evidence.
19 MR. MESEREAU: Calls for speculation;
20 assumes facts not in evidence.
21 THE COURT: I’m going to sustain the
22 objection because of the use of the term
23 “obsession.”
24 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: If you knew that the person,
25 the 35-year-old man who was sleeping with an
26 eight-year-old boy, possessed a great quantity of
27 sexually explicit material, would that cause you
28 concern about that person’s motivations while he was
1 in bed with the boy?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. ZONEN: No further questions.
4
5 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. MESEREAU:
7 Q. If you had known Michael Jackson, as a grown
8 man, was reading Playboy, Hustler, Penthouse,
9 magazines like that showing naked women, would that
10 have concerned you?
11 A. No. That’s what I was going to say
12 afterward. Depends on what kind of material, what
13 kind of pornographic material you were talking
14 about.
15 Q. Would that have concerned you?
16 A. No.
17 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions.
18 MR. ZONEN: May I approach the witness?
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20
21 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. ZONEN:
23 Q. I’d like to show you a couple exhibits, 841
24 and 842, that have been shown previously in this
25 court to this jury.
26 Let’s start with one titled “Boys Will Be
27 Boys.” I’d like you to take a look at a few of the
28 pages. Just go ahead and start turning pages,
1 please.
2 Stop there for a moment.
3 Would you describe the picture on the right
4 side?
5 A. There’s a young boy with his legs open and
6 he’s naked.
7 Q. All right. The picture prominently displays
8 his genitalia, does it not?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. That boy looks, to you, to be approximately
11 how old?
12 A. Maybe 11 or 12.
13 Q. That’s how old you were when you were
14 sleeping with Michael Jackson; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Go ahead and flip a couple of more pages, if
17 you would.
18 You can stop right there, the next page.
19 What’s the picture on the left show?
20 A. Just a young boy who’s naked standing on a
21 rock.
22 Q. His genitalia is prominently displayed in
23 that picture; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Appears that that child is about the same as
26 the other one?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Flip a couple more pages. Please keep
1 going.
2 Okay. Stop right there.
3 What’s in that two pages, series of two
4 pages?
5 A. There’s a boy, about the same age, 11 or 12,
6 who’s naked.
7 Q. All right. And in those pictures his
8 genitalia is prominently displayed as well; is that
9 correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In fact, if you’ll take just a second and
12 strum through the balance of that book — you can do
13 it fairly rapidly, if you would. You don’t have to
14 go page by page, but as you wish.
15 Is it true, Mr. Robson, that all of the
16 pictures in that book are of boys about the same
17 age?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. 10, 11, 12 years old?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And that many of the photographs, if not
22 most of the photographs, depicted in that book are
23 of boys nude; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And in fact, in most of those pictures, the
26 genitalia is prominently displayed; is that right?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Would you be concerned with a person who
1 possesses a book like that?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Would you be concerned about having your
4 12-year-old child in bed with a person who possesses
5 a book like that?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You would have no such concern?
8 A. No. It’s — to me, it doesn’t — it’s not a
9 pornographic book. It’s sort of, you know — I
10 don’t know, just a book.
11 Q. I’d like — and I’d like to show you
12 Exhibit 596, please. Take a moment and look at that
13 book.
14 Let’s stop there for a moment.
15 That’s the first, in fact, picture in that
16 book; is that correct?
17 A. I didn’t notice, no.
18 Do you want me to go to the first picture?
19 Q. You know, no, you can pick any picture,
20 actually. Just go ahead and open the book at
21 random.
22 Right there.
23 A. Oh, sorry.
24 Q. Is it a fact, as you look through that book,
25 what is depicted in that book throughout that book
26 are a series of photographs of two men engaged in
27 sex acts with one another?
28 A. Yes.
1 Q. And in fact, the sex acts are all acts of
2 either masturbation, oral sex or sodomy; is that
3 right?
4 A. From what I saw, yes.
5 Q. And sodomy, as you understand, is an act of
6 anal sex; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Would you be concerned about a person who
9 possesses that book crawling into bed with a
10 ten-year-old boy?
11 A. Yes, I guess so.
12 MR. ZONEN: No further questions.
13 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
14 THE COURT: Yes.
15
16 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION
17 BY MR. MESEREAU:
18 Q. Mr. Robson, I want to show you Exhibit
19 No. 841. It says, “Boys Will Be Boys.” Do you see
20 this?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Now, I’d like you to read the
23 inscription on that book, okay? Read it out loud,
24 if you would.
25 A. Okay. “Look at the true spirit of happiness
26 and joy in these boys’ faces. This is the spirit of
27 boyhood, a life I never had and will always dream
28 of. This is the life I want for my children. MJ.”
1 Q. Having read that inscription and having
2 looked at this book, would you have any concern
3 being in bed with Michael Jackson if you knew this
4 book was found in his home?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Let me show you Exhibit No. 842. Please
7 read out loud the inscription on that book.
8 A. Is that, “To Michael”? Yeah. “To Michael,
9 from your fan. Kiss, kiss, kiss, hug, hug, hug.
10 Rhonda. 1983.”
11 Q. You’ve looked through that book – okay? –
12 and it says, “The Boy; A photographic Essay,” right?
13 A. I didn’t look through that book.
14 Q. Okay. Why don’t you look through this book
15 the prosecutor showed you, and please say whether or
16 not you would have a problem being in the same
17 bedroom with Michael Jackson based upon what you see
18 in that book and the inscription.
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. Now, let me show you — let me show
21 you Exhibit No. 596 that the prosecutor showed you.
22 Just read the cover, if you would.
23 A. “Man, A Sexual Study of Man. Illustrated
24 With Photographs and Art Prints.”
25 Q. Okay. Now, you’ve seen those photographs,
26 and you’ve said you were somewhat disturbed by the
27 pictures, right?
28 A. Well, I wasn’t disturbed by the pictures.
1 Q. Well, if you — if you read this book, and
2 it appeared to be a book dealing with male sexuality
3 in all different areas, and you knew that this book
4 existed with hundreds of editions of Hustler,
5 Playboy, Penthouse —
6 MR. ZONEN: I’m going to object as leading.
7 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: — would that bother you?
8 MR. ZONEN: I’m going to object as leading.
9 THE COURT: Overruled.
10 You may answer.
11 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat it?
12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Sure.
13 Let’s assume that you learned that Michael
14 Jackson had ten years’ worth of Hustler, Playboy,
15 Penthouse – okay? – magazines, heterosexual-type
16 magazines, and let’s assume that — have you ever
17 seen Mr. Jackson’s library?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How many books do you think are in there?
20 A. Thousands.
21 Q. And let’s suppose in the middle of all those
22 books you found, “A Sexual Study of Man, Illustrated
23 With Photographs and Art Prints,” okay?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Putting all this together, would being in
26 bed with Mr. Jackson concern you?
27 A. No.
28 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions.
1 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. ZONEN:
3 Q. Of course nobody’s told you where this book
4 comes from, did they?
5 A. No.
6 MR. SNEDDON: Ron?
7 THE COURT: It’s time for the break.
8 MR. ZONEN: It’s not quarter to.
9 THE COURT: My bailiff told me.
10 (Recess taken.)
11 MR. MESEREAU: Your Honor?
12 MR. ZONEN: Thank you.
13 MR. MESEREAU: I’m going to object that the
14 questions have become cumulative and there’s no
15 foundation for it to go any further.
16 BAILIFF CORTEZ: Your microphone is off,
17 sir.
18 MR. MESEREAU: It’s beyond the scope. And
19 this is not a character witness.
20 MR. ZONEN: I don’t recall which question
21 he’s referring to.
22 THE COURT: I’m looking for it myself.
23 I don’t have a question.
24 THE REPORTER: Would you like me to read the
25 last question, Judge?
26 MR. ZONEN: I’m prepared to start with a new
27 question.
28 THE COURT: All right.
1 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Mr. Robson, the three books
2 that are in front of you that you’ve already taken a
3 look at, I’d like to go back over the inscription
4 that — 842 is a book, and you were asked to read
5 that inscription out loud.
6 Take a look at that inscription again, would
7 you, please?
8 A. Do you want me to read it again?
9 Q. No, you don’t need to read it again.
10 Go to the last word, which is the name.
11 What is the name on that?
12 A. Rhonda.
13 Q. Notice anything unusual about the name?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you notice it’s written with quotations
16 on both sides of it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Doesn’t that usually mean that that’s not
19 the name when somebody writes it in quotation marks?
20 A. Not that I know of.
21 Q. Have you ever written your name in quotation
22 marks?
23 A. No.
24 Q. That’s actually from somebody who’s not
25 named Rhonda, right?
26 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; calls for
27 speculation.
28 THE COURT: Sustained.
1 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: The three books I’ve given
2 you so far to take a look at, they all feature
3 either boys or adult men, predominantly nude, and
4 the one on adult men is engaged in sex acts; is that
5 correct?
6 MR. MESEREAU: I’m going to object; asked
7 and answered. This is cumulative.
8 THE COURT: Overruled.
9 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: I’m going to show you three
10 additional books now, if I could. Let’s start with
11 Exhibit 578, if you’ll take a look at that one,
12 please.
13 MR. MESEREAU: Same objection. Cumulative;
14 it’s not character; it’s beyond the scope.
15 THE COURT: Overruled.
16 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: I’ll start with the first
17 picture. What do you see right there?
18 A. I see in the center of the picture, it’s a
19 drawing. And there’s a naked man with his genitalia
20 exposed, and there’s kangaroos on either side.
21 Q. Okay. Go ahead and proceed.
22 You can keep going. Just keep going through
23 it.
24 You can stop.
25 What you’ve seen so far are all pictures of
26 naked men; is that right?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And pictures with their genitalia
1 prominently displayed; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Some of these are bondage pictures, are they
4 not?
5 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
6 MR. ZONEN: It’s cross-examination, Your
7 Honor.
8 MR. MESEREAU: Assumes facts not in
9 evidence.
10 THE COURT: Overruled.
11 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Is that correct? Like that
12 picture right there?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Would you consider this to be homoerotic
15 material?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Exhibit No. 590-B, take a look at that,
18 please. Tell us the title.
19 A. “Before the Hand of Man.”
20 Q. Go ahead and take a look at the content of
21 that book.
22 That’s enough.
23 Pictures of naked young men; is that
24 correct?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Would you consider that to be homoerotic
27 material?
28 A. No.
1 Q. Why not?
2 A. I look at this more as sort of — it’s about
3 the photography and it’s more of an art book, to me.
4 Q. Do you think it’s the background setting
5 that makes it unique?
6 A. Unique?
7 Q. Well, they’re all naked men in it; is that
8 right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Look at No. 599, if you would.
11 You can stop.
12 Those are all pictures of boys and men, all
13 nude; is that correct?
14 A. I didn’t see any boys. I saw men.
15 Q. How old do you think is the youngest person
16 you’ve seen in this book so far?
17 A. Maybe 19. 18, 19.
18 Q. Teenaged?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Okay. They’re all about that age or a
21 little bit older; is that right?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Do you think this person is 19?
24 A. 18, 19, yeah.
25 Q. Okay. And in fact, in each one of them,
26 genitalia is prominently displayed; is that correct?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Take a look at this book, please, No. 590-A.
1 You can stop here.
2 What are you taking a look at? Particularly
3 the page you’re focused on at the moment, what do
4 you see?
5 A. There’s two naked men and it looks like
6 they’re about to kiss each another.
7 Q. In this book, in fact, each of the pictures
8 depict two naked men; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And in each instance, both of them are doing
11 something with one another of a sexual nature; is
12 that right?
13 A. No.
14 Q. They’re hugging, they’re touching, they’re
15 caressing?
16 A. They’re posing.
17 Q. They’re posing. And they’re all naked?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Would you consider this to be homoerotic
20 art?
21 A. Mind if I look a little more?
22 Q. Go ahead.
23 A. Yeah, it’s — I don’t think it’s so erotic.
24 It seems more loving in a way, like not so much
25 about sex.
26 Q. Well, how about the one you just turned to?
27 Where is his hand?
28 A. Down his pants.
1 Q. Okay. You can go ahead and close that one
2 right now.
3 Mr. Robson, are you concerned about a man
4 possessing these seven books being in bed with a
5 12-year-old boy?
6 A. If it was a man I didn’t know, maybe. But
7 not Michael.
8 Q. Is that because you view Mr. Jackson as
9 being, for the most part, asexual?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Because you believe that he doesn’t really
12 have a sexual interest?
13 A. I believe that he has a sexual interest in
14 women.
15 Q. Did you know that he possessed these
16 magazines?
17 MR. MESEREAU: Objection, Your Honor, he
18 didn’t let the witness complete his answer.
19 THE COURT: Sustained.
20 MR. MESEREAU: Could the witness complete
21 his answer, Your Honor?
22 THE COURT: Yes.
23 THE WITNESS: I believe that he has a sexual
24 interest in women.
25 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: In women?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. These books don’t suggest otherwise?
28 A. Not necessarily.
1 Q. All right. Let’s go to some other side of
2 the counter.
3 Exhibit No. 575, have you ever seen this
4 magazine before?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Not that specific one. A magazine of that
7 nature?
8 A. Of that nature, yes.
9 Q. Okay. And go ahead and turn through it.
10 You can stop there. You don’t need to go
11 too much further.
12 This magazine depicts naked women, or a
13 woman in this case, inserting things inside of her;
14 is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You would consider this to be very
17 graphic —
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. — in terms of sexually explicit material?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Exhibit No. 520, tell us the title of that.
22 A. “Hard Rock Affair.”
23 Q. Okay. Go ahead and turn through a few
24 pages.
25 You don’t have to turn any further.
26 That magazine depicts graphic sexual
27 pictures of a man and a woman engaged in acts of
28 intercourse and oral sex; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You would consider this to be pretty much as
3 hard-core as sexually graphic material goes; is that
4 right?
5 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Misstates the
6 evidence; 352.
7 MR. ZONEN: I asked him what he considered.
8 THE COURT: Overruled.
9 You may answer.
10 THE WITNESS: That’s as hard-core as it goes,
11 is that what you asked?
12 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Yes.
13 A. No, not as hard-core as it goes.
14 Q. What could be more than that?
15 A. I’ve seen crazy things, crazy bondage
16 things, all sorts of stuff.
17 Q. You saw the bondage in the last publication;
18 is that right?
19 A. Yeah, but they weren’t really doing
20 anything.
21 Q. All right. You would consider bondage to be
22 at the height?
23 A. Yeah. When it gets into, you know, really
24 unusual stuff.
25 Q. What’s the title of this one? The magazine
26 that we have here is 522.
27 A. “Double Dicking Caroline.”
28 Q. Go ahead and turn a couple pages.
1 Okay. That’s fine.
2 These are all photographs of a man and a
3 woman engaged in pretty much anything a man and a
4 woman can do; is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Including acts of intercourse, acts of oral
7 sex, and the picture right in front of you, acts of
8 anal sex; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. This you would consider to be fairly
11 hard-core, would you not?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The title of this one, please? No. 510.
14 A. “Stiff Dick Lynn.” Or “for Lynn,” sorry.
15 Q. “For Lynn”?
16 A. “Stiff Dick for Lynn.”
17 Q. Let’s get our prepositions right.
18 A. Get it right, yeah.
19 Q. Go ahead and turn the page, if you would.
20 A. I never thought I’d have a room of people
21 watching me do this.
22 Q. That’s enough.
23 You would agree that this is a depiction of
24 a man and a woman engaged in virtually every
25 variation that a man and woman can do with one
26 another; is that right?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Sexually.
1 The collective material that you have just
2 been shown does not cause you a moment of pause when
3 you think about the prospect of this person who
4 possesses all of this crawling into bed with a
5 ten-year-old boy?
6 A. No.
7 Q. And you would allow a child to crawl into
8 bed with such a person?
9 A. If I knew the person, yes.
10 Q. If you knew them?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Your own child, you’d have no problem
13 sleeping with a 35-, 40-year-old man?
14 A. If I knew the person well, no.
15 MR. ZONEN: No further questions.
16
17 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. MESEREAU:
19 Q. Mr. Robson?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. That’s your fiancee right there, correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You are heterosexual, correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You are a close friend of Michael, correct?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. By the way, did Michael Jackson ever — oh,
28 I’ll ask from there.
1 When you were a young child, did Michael
2 Jackson ever show you any sexually explicit
3 material?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you ever see Michael Jackson show
6 sexually explicit material to any child?
7 A. No.
8 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
9 THE COURT: Yes.
10 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, let me show you again
11 Exhibit No. 841. Do you see that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And have you had a chance to flip through
14 that book?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. Let me show you again Exhibit No.
17 596. It says, “A Sexual Study of Man.” Do you see
18 that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Have you had a chance to flip through that
21 book?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. And let me show you again Exhibit No.
24 842, “A boy; A Photographic Essay,” okay? And
25 that’s the one with the inscription, “To Michael,
26 from your loving fan, Rhonda,” okay?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And have you had a chance to flip through
1 that book?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In fact, you see young children with rather
4 innocent photographs of young boys, correct?
5 MR. ZONEN: I’m going to object as leading,
6 Your Honor.
7 THE COURT: Overruled.
8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Innocent photographs of
9 young boys in various situations, right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. You see a young boy hanging from a
12 tree, right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You see a young boy sitting outside a door,
15 right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. See young boys on a beach, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. Now, let’s go to — quickly, to the
20 material the prosecutor for the government showed
21 you, okay? He showed you some magazines with
22 heterosexual activity, correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Have you seen one book that depicts
25 child pornography in that group?
26 A. No.
27 MR. ZONEN: I believe there was a Court
28 restriction on the use of that word, Your Honor, one
1 initiated by the defense. Unless that reservation
2 is finished.
3 MR. MESEREAU: He’s correct. And I made a
4 mistake using the word. I’ll withdraw it, and I
5 apologize.
6 THE COURT: All right. The problem is that
7 sometimes it’s an appropriate word to use and
8 sometimes it’s not. But the jury’s been instructed
9 on it. And so if you want to rephrase it, that’s
10 fine.
11 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.
12 Q. In those books that the prosecutor for the
13 government showed you, you see books about men,
14 right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You see one book that says, “A Study of Male
17 Sexuality” and shows some sexual acts between men,
18 correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And he showed you a number of magazines
21 involving sexual activity between men and women,
22 correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Has he shown you one book involving
25 children having sex?
26 A. No.
27 Q. Has he shown you one book where a man is
28 having sex with a child?
1 A. No.
2 Q. The prosecutor tried to suggest that Mr.
3 Jackson is asexual. Do you remember that question?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you believe he’s asexual?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Have you seen Mr. Jackson with women in your
8 lifetime?
9 A. With what kind of woman? A woman that he’s
10 in a relationship with?
11 Q. That he’s been married to.
12 A. Yeah, with Lisa Marie.
13 Q. When you were at Neverland, did you ever see
14 anything that suggested pedophilia?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Ever see any magazine or poster that
17 suggested pedophilia?
18 A. Never.
19 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions.
20
21 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. ZONEN:
23 Q. Mr. Robson, when did you first learn that
24 Michael Jackson possessed material of the nature
25 that’s before you right now?
26 A. Right now I did.
27 Q. All the years that you have known Michael —
28 A. Actually, no one’s told me where this came
1 from.
2 Q. Assuming this comes from Michael Jackson’s
3 residence.
4 A. Assuming it does, this is the first I know.
5 Q. All right. And you had never, ever known
6 that Mr. Jackson collected sexually explicit
7 material?
8 A. No.
9 Q. This is something new that you’re learning
10 just today; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You’re telling us that this would have no
13 effect at all on your belief that this bears on some
14 suitability for him sleeping with ten-year-old boys?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You knew that there were a succession of
17 ten-year-old boys that he slept with, didn’t you?
18 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Misstates the
19 evidence; the Court ruling.
20 THE COURT: Sustained.
21 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did you know about other
22 children that he had slept with?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Never?
25 A. No.
26 Q. Did you know that he was sleeping with Brett
27 Barnes?
28 A. No.
1 Q. Did you know that he was sleeping with
2 Macaulay Culkin?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you know that he was sleeping with
5 Jordie Chandler?
6 A. No.
7 MR. ZONEN: No further questions.
8
9 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. MESEREAU:
11 Q. You actually saw kids sleeping in his room
12 from time to time, correct?
13 A. Yeah. When he was present as well, yeah.
14 Q. And Macaulay Culkin was there as well,
15 correct?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. Never saw anything inappropriate happen,
18 right?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Has anything this prosecutor for the
21 government has said to you changed your opinion of
22 Michael Jackson?
23 A. Not at all.
24 Q. Does it change your opinion as to whether or
25 not he ever did anything inappropriate with a child?
26 A. Not at all.
27 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions.
28 MR. ZONEN: I have no questions.
1 THE COURT: Thank you. You may step down.